Of all issues facing our country today, nothing confounds everyday voters-- especially liberal government-centric, ill informed voters---more than economic realities facing our country. Actually it's the same things that our country has faced over and over in the past and will again and again in the future.
Nowhere do myths and magical thinking abound more than in the arena of taxes---who pays too much? too little? none at all? and what we need to do to raise more revenues for the federal coffers? And what the government is charged to spend it on.
In the next few days, my liberal entitlement readers can look forward to a course in very basic finance. But be forewarned, you're not going to like it. We right-wingers are going to stick to the facts and let the chips fall where they may.
And also be advised, no tantrums are going to be allowed here. You can take that over to the Waaaaa Waaaa WaaaaPo or the HuffPo. They'll make you feel all better.
Nowhere do myths and magical thinking abound more than in the arena of taxes---who pays too much? too little? none at all? and what we need to do to raise more revenues for the federal coffers? And what the government is charged to spend it on.
In the next few days, my liberal entitlement readers can look forward to a course in very basic finance. But be forewarned, you're not going to like it. We right-wingers are going to stick to the facts and let the chips fall where they may.
And also be advised, no tantrums are going to be allowed here. You can take that over to the Waaaaa Waaaa WaaaaPo or the HuffPo. They'll make you feel all better.
26 comments:
I'll be looking forward to you explaining the cold hard facts of how the $431 Billion Surplus over the last 3 budget years of Clinton turned into a $734 Billion Deficit over the previous three budget years under Bush, how GDP growth of 4.09% under Clinton over 8 yrs has been reduced to 2.65% under Bush, how the U.S. Trade Deficits inceased from $380 Billion to $759 Billion under Bush, how the price of gas has nearly tripled, the cost of college has nearly doubled, and the cost of medical insurance has doubled while the median household income that increased by $6000 under Clinton in 8 years has decreased by $1,100 under Bush in 6 years? Consumer credit debt has increased from $7.65 Trillion to $12.8 Trillion under Bush and for the first time since 1945 homeowners' debt on their houses exceeds their equity. Personal savings rates have dropped from +2/3% during Clinton to -0.5% under Bush.
You can find these stats for yourself at Bureau of Economic Analysis (bea.gov)
Looking forward to your explanation of these cold hard facts. No ranting here, just facts and questions. Thanks in advance for your answers.
Oh, you poor dear. Must be awful living through all you've obviously been through the past few years. The term 'dire straits' comes to mind. Did you lose your home in the sub-prime mortage meltdown too? I hope you've been able to get assistance in some form--perhaps a little welfare or assistance from a nearby church soup kitchen or shelter. Have you been able to get your teeth cleaned regularly?
Us in the middle class, are so out of touch with reality. Here I thought things were zipping along swimmingly the past few years.
All I can suggest is that Michelle Obama might need an assistant to help her carry the larger and larger chip on her shoulder to create neediness and dispair so that her husband, the messiah, can be elected and make it all better for you.
Meanwhile, I'll be addressing all these topics, you know, from an out-of-touch perspective, in the days ahead. You may or may not be up for reading it all.
I'll understand. First things first. Sounds like you need lots of rest.
Geez, try a little more sarcasm next time. Ellen presented her economic facts in a reasonable manner without ranting, just asking for your answers. You are free to check those facts for yourself. You are free to disagree with everyone of them if you like.
The cold hard facts are that foreclosures are skyrocketing, we have had a net loss of job creation for two months, inflation is going up, gas prices are rising and we have a tremendous deficit. You're free to believe or not believe those things happening around you.
I do like the "compassionate conservative" side though, mocking Ellen as someone who needs help at food banks, soup kitchens and government dentist offices. Very mature.
You go Ellen! Good to see someone state the facts.
Gee Ellen, you might be forgetting that there was this thing called a terror attack that took place on 9/11/2001, or that we're still in the middle of the war on terror. Not to mention the Clinton administration cooked the books to overestimate the "surplus", the Bush administration took over at the beginning of an economic downturn, the Teddy Kennedy written No Child Left Behind education bill, and a few national disasters, like Katrina, come to mind. Whether you agree with policy decisions revolving around these or not, these are items that impacted the budget.
Does that refresh your memory at all?
Foreclosures are skyrocketing because people went into more debt than they could actually afford, by the way. Liberals never think people actually create their own messes though--it's always somebody else's fault.
I'm surprised none of the liberals here blamed the economy on the mythical, science-by-consensus "Global Warming" meme by now. (:-D)
The sky is falling!!! The sky is falling!!! Run for your lives from the economic and fake science faux crises!!!
Anything else you guys want to panic about? ;-)
"Liberals never think people actually create their own messes though--it's always somebody else's fault."
Let's see...this is AFTER you blamed the current economic crisis on Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, Iraq and Hurricane Katrina.
That's what I love about conservatives - "it's always somebody else's fault."
You're not listening to what Tom said, Vienna. To wit, in the sub prime meltdown mess, many if not most investors borrowed more than they could even handle. Even though the media paints them as victims, the responsibility is stil theirs to deal with.
This and most other things mentioned above are not caused by Bush.
Tom points are well taken.
Uh huh, I got it. Despite being a clueless, uniformed liberal, I actually know how to read and I understand Tom's point about the subprime mortgage mess, and for the most part I agree with it. I also think some of the blame lies with mortgage companies who knew they sold mortgages to people who could not afford them, and realtors for showing people houses well outside what their incomes could afford.
I don't recall blaming George Bush for that. I know it's Bill Clinton's fault.
I just think it's funny in one post to lecture Ellen, et. al, about how Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton are to blame for the financial mess, then turn around in the next post and say "Liberals never think people actually create their own messes though--it's always somebody else's fault."
"I just think it's funny in one post to lecture Ellen, et. al, about how Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton are to blame for the financial mess, then turn around in the next post and say "Liberals never think people actually create their own messes though--it's always somebody else's fault.""
LOL! And I think it's funny when someone asks for cold hard facts in one comment, and when they're given, to turn around in the next comment and declare that the person responding is playing the blame game.
You're always entertaining, Vienna! (:-D)
Despite being a clueless, uniformed liberal..."
Nobody here called you that. As a matter of fact, Web emailed me earlier today thanking me for jumping into the conversation, and described you as, "well educated," and she also said that you "keep me on my toes."
I believe that was a compliment. You might be misguided and a drama queen at times, but nobody called you "clueless" or "uninformed".
Ummm...ok...I don't recall asking you for cold hard facts, but thanks for posting them anyways, I guess.
You blame Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy for our financial problems in your first post, and in the next post, chastise liberals for thinking "it's always somebody else's fault." I think that's slightly ironic.
I'm not running around thinking the sky is falling, but I'm not very confident about where we're headed economically. The price of oil keeps going up, the value of the dollar compared to the Euro (and other foreign currencies) keeps dropping, big time mortgage companies are writing off BILLIONS of dollars in losses every week, and the economy is not creating new jobs. I think that's troubling, and I don't think I'm alone in thinking that.
Feel free to mock at will.
A misguided drama queen? That's harsh. And a little misguided, but gentle compared to other more mean-spirited adjectives tossed my way in the past.
And for the record, I make no apologies for being well-read and well-educated.
Does that make me a drama queen?
"Ummm...ok...I don't recall asking you for cold hard facts, but thanks for posting them anyways, I guess."
You did agree with Ellen, didn't you? You did chastise Web for being sarcastic, didn't you? Weren't you implicitly expecting real answers to Ellen's questions? Whether you intended that to be the case, that's how I read it.
FYI, Bush isn't a conservative. He's whipped out the government checkbook quite a lot throughout his 2 terms, something that conservatives abhor and have loudly complained about. Anytime the government thinks it can "fix" the economy, we have the issues we have now...and compounded to boot. The last "economic stimulus" plan is a liberal method of attempting to fix something politicians have no business sticking their noses into. Nancy was grinning like a Cheshire Cat when Bush signed the bill.
Government should keep their mitts off the economy altogether, unless those inside the beltway really want to help and cut taxes across the board.
The more they keep their hands off, the better off the economy will be. The housing market needs a correction; the government needs to let it happen or they'll make it worse.
You will never have a "perfect" economy. There will always be something about it that isn't so good, even in the best of times, which is what we've had for quite some time now.
"Feel free to mock at will."
No problem. It's so easy to do! ;-)
I couldn't agree more, Tom. When corrections come, it's always because they're needed. There are some wonderful articles I want to do a post on, on how FDR actually prolonged the depression because he and his economoic advisers just couldn't stop tinkering with things.
I also agree there have been numerous failing in the Bush Administration....his not using his veto pen is one of the greatest. No Child Left Behind is another. That awful rebate idea is utterly ridiculous.
"A misguided drama queen?"
What I actually said was:
"You might be misguided and a drama queen at times..."
BIG difference. This was in reference to your "...clueless, uninformed liberal..." comment. Unintentional satire on your part.
"And for the record, I make no apologies for being well-read and well-educated."
Nobody asked you to. Once again, this was a compliment, because that's something I VALUE. See what I mean?
"Does that make me a drama queen?"
No, but making wild assumptions about what I think about you does.
Relax. And wish me happy digging for tomorrow. We're in the middle of a blizzard in my area of Ohio. I'm not exaggerating. 12-15 inches of blowing and drifting snow may not be much to other areas equipped to handle that kind of snow, but we're only equipped to handle 3-5 inches.
I was just comparing and quoting statistics. Why the sarcastic response? I thought you wanted to discuss facts, so I presented some. How many times have we seen this tactic from conservatives?
Admit nothing. Deny everything. Blame someone else. Say: "They did it too"
BTW on a subject you brought up, Tom, you might be interested in the new book on the 9/11 Commission. Most interestingly is how the Bush Administration tried to rewrite history in the 911 investigation by ignoring many of these issues: the history of the 40 presidential briefings presented to Bush in the months before 9/11 that contained dire warnings of an al Qaeda attack; several CIA reports about the threat of terrorists using planes as missiles; Department of Defense considering such an attack as a real possibility that they conducted drills for a plane-as-missile attack on the Pentagon; and most stunning is the exasperated Sept 4, '01 memo to Rice by Clarke where he was fed up by his dozens of dire al Qaeda warnings being ignored. He said, "Are we serious about dealing with the al-Qaeda threat? Decision makers should imagine themselves on a future day when Counterterrorism has not succeeded in stopping al-Qaeda attacks and hundreds of Americans lay dead..."
After receiving all these specific dire warnings, our great protector went on vacation... for a month. Yea, all this negative economic stuff, all because of 9/11 - not Bush's fault.
Ellen:
You're dredging up things that have already been covered and debunked. Google is your friend.
So many willfull falsehoods put forth so gleefully. I'll let Tom and Web handle the heavy lifting, but to start, Bush inherited an economy that was in trouble after Bill Clinton took a vey robust economy from a Republican (Conservative) Congress and ran it into the ground. Second, I am so tired of hearing the lie that President Bush took a month vacation because, a) it is impossible for a president to take a real vacation because they are always on duty, and b) those who keep ranting this line only embarrass themselves by appearing to either knowingly lie or by being so clueless they unwittingly pass it on.
BTW, the Robin Hood fable was not originally about stealing from the rich to give to the poor. It was taking back illegal tax money from the government (King) to give back to the oppressed people.
Thank you mRed for clarifying the Robin Hood story. I very much appreciate that.
Webutante, Sorry.It's a bad habit born when I started kindergarten and came home to explain what I had learned that day. The rest of the evening was spent getting reschooled with the truth from my parents. The Robin Hood revision drove my parents crazy.
"Bush inherited an economy that was in trouble after Bill Clinton took a vey robust economy from a Republican (Conservative) Congress and ran it into the ground"
Wow. Just wow. You do realize that the economy *Clinton* inherited in the early 90s from the first President Bush was in a recession, right?
Let's focus just on job growth. During the Clinton years, 22.7 million jobs were created - an average of 237,000 per month. From August, 2003 thru October, 2007, 8.5 million jobs have been added - an average of 172,000 per month (if you're wondering why I left out Jan 2001-July 2003, it's because if you factor in those months, the job creation number drops to 5.8 million for an average of 72,000 per month - and most likely those numbers will drop further because we've either had low job growth since October, with two months of job losses this year). Don't believe me? Look 'em up for yourself.
As for vacations, as of August 9, 2007, George W. Bush had spent 418 days at his ranch in Crawford. At that time, he still had 17 months in his presidency to go. He's eaasily on track to beat the all time Presidential vacation record holder (Ronald Reagan, 436 days)
Reagan didn't do so poorly on all that vacation. I guess he knew how to get out of the way.
Actually, it's a non-starter Vienna. Today we can work anywhere with computers, phones, Skype etc. Bush is a disciplined man and no doubt can and will do his job in D.C. or in Texas.
In spite of all this, I want to say I am having a bit of a born-again experience in the arena of the US economy, thanks to John Tamney, whom I've known and chatted with for some years now, and actually have some fairly startling things to say next week.
John, btw, is editor of RealClearMarkets which I am linking to today. I first met him at the Cato Institute and everything he said was over my head and before my time. But finally, it's beginning to sink in with me. Evidently Larry Kudlow is beginning to get it too.
All I can say is, John may be the smartest man I know on what's really going on with the economy and what needs to happen.
What he says is shocking. And I'm beginning to think what he's saying is true.
Meanwhile, I will begin to link to RCM today.
I've no doubt that George W. Bush works just as hard on vacation as he does while he's here in DC. I merely pointed out he's our most vacationed president.
Here's a BLS doc which talks about the economic expansion during the 1990s. Run into the ground? Uhhh..not quite.
Those of you who are snow bound can snuggle up in front of the fire, with a warm cuppa hot chocolate and enjoy. Stay warm!
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2000/12/art1full.pdf
Tom, I don't know what your talking about being "debunked." The warnings Bush receieved in the form of Presidential Daily Briefings are now public and in the 9/11 Commission report, as are the email warnings from Clark to Rice that were ignored.
You really must be living in denial if you think I'm making this stuff up. There was serious negligence and incompetence involved here.
At the ranch in Crawford during August before 9/11, instead of acting on the warnings, Bush's primary agenda was political, to "fire up the base" with his main public event - a speech declaring federal limits on scientific research involving stem cells.
He was on vacation. Look at the video of the barbeques he had for the press. Not a worry in the world.
When Bush came to office, America didn't have a care in the world. No one believed the threat. Certainly not the Clinton Administration who considered terrorism a law enforcement issue.
But to superimpose that on him after September 11 is ridiculous.
It's time we move on. Closing comments on this post and hope we can take up on issues on another post.
Best wishes.
Post a Comment