Off the river, Out of the woods, and onto the wilderness of the Web
Saturday, December 13, 2008
Sunday, Tim Keller on the New Atheists and Three Kinds of Men
Below is my all-time favorite Tim Keller short video on three kinds of men. It's a theme he develops much more fully in his new book, The Prodigal God, Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith, which I'll be blogging about after Christmas.
In Keller's book, "The Reasons for God..." he addresses the question I've always searched for an adequate answer to:
"How Can a Loving God Send People to Hell?"
I have searched for an adequate answer for this question and Keller doesn’t provide it. Instead he gives what he believes is the evidence for a judgmental god but the fact remains, and Keller only reinforces this concept, if you don’t accept the divinity of god, you will be condemned to an eternity of torture because hell is real and if you don't believe it, your mind isn't right. Sounds more like an authoritarian dictatorship than a religion - rule by threat and fear. Reminds me of that Star Trek movie where Capt'n Kirk says, “what does god need with a spaceship?” Sorry, but the emperor has no clothes... why does god need the threat of hellfire torture and damnation as a punishment hanging over the head of anyone that would disavow the requirement to worship him? This proves conclusively the exisitence of a power and control motive. Game Over.
Further, both he and CS Lewis in non-subtle terms promote the moral superiority of christians over non-christians. Again, if people were so convinced that they were correct, why would they have to also convince themselves by asserting that they are morally better than others who believe differently?
None of the flowery rhetoric can erase these observations.
Proverbs 30 Sayings of Agur 1 The sayings of Agur son of Jakeh—an oracle [a] : This man declared to Ithiel, to Ithiel and to Ucal: [b] 2 "I am the most ignorant of men; I do not have a man's understanding.
3 I have not learned wisdom, nor have I knowledge of the Holy One.
4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." ---1 Corinthians 2:14
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death." --Deuteronomy 17:12
Kill Nonbelievers:
"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." -- 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
"See to it that you do not refuse Him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from Him who warns us from heaven?”
[19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
[25] "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
[27] "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, [28] for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
[29] "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
[30] " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
[31] "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
fraydna, Thanx for that quote, it sums up my feelings exactly. Let me add just a few words to it:
"There are more things in heaven, earth, and beyond, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5) - William Shakespeare and William
I feel it is quite arrogant for man to have the audacity to think that a belief system he invented explains the creation and spiritual basis of the universe. Totality is far more vast than any person can comprehend in any puny philosophy or religion. We humans certainly fancy ourselves with grandeur. 'Created in the image of god, indeed! We have no concept of small our view really is.
God's Word and 2,000 years of Salvation History in the Bible came from God, not man. And while man can be 'arrogant' in anything, including religion, God is Sovereign. So it is trivia and puerile to judge God in terms of human frailties, like arrogance.
Better to read and study the Bible in context and sequence from start to finish and ask to Holy Spirit to open your eyes and heart to Truth, than to pronounce and dismiss it as just another belief system.
In Keller's book, "The Reasons for God..." he addresses the question I've always searched for an adequate answer to:
ReplyDelete"How Can a Loving God Send People to Hell?"
I have searched for an adequate answer for this question and Keller doesn’t provide it. Instead he gives what he believes is the evidence for a judgmental god but the fact remains, and Keller only reinforces this concept, if you don’t accept the divinity of god, you will be condemned to an eternity of torture because hell is real and if you don't believe it, your mind isn't right. Sounds more like an authoritarian dictatorship than a religion - rule by threat and fear. Reminds me of that Star Trek movie where Capt'n Kirk says, “what does god need with a spaceship?” Sorry, but the emperor has no clothes... why does god need the threat of hellfire torture and damnation as a punishment hanging over the head of anyone that would disavow the requirement to worship him? This proves conclusively the exisitence of a power and control motive. Game Over.
Further, both he and CS Lewis in non-subtle terms promote the moral superiority of christians over non-christians. Again, if people were so convinced that they were correct, why would they have to also convince themselves by asserting that they are morally better than others who believe differently?
None of the flowery rhetoric can erase these observations.
Again, Game Over.
Proverbs 30
ReplyDeleteSayings of Agur
1 The sayings of Agur son of Jakeh—an oracle [a] :
This man declared to Ithiel,
to Ithiel and to Ucal: [b]
2 "I am the most ignorant of men;
I do not have a man's understanding.
3 I have not learned wisdom,
nor have I knowledge of the Holy One.
4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands?
Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and the name of his son?
Tell me if you know
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
ReplyDelete---1 Corinthians 2:14
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
---Isaiah 55:8
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests:
ReplyDelete"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death." --Deuteronomy 17:12
Kill Nonbelievers:
"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." -- 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
Yes, not only hell, but death to the infidels.
Love the three ways video and the comments.
ReplyDelete"See to it that you do not refuse Him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from Him who warns us from heaven?”
ReplyDelete---Hebrews 12: 14-29
Luke 16:19-31
ReplyDeleteTHE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
[19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
[25] "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
[27] "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, [28] for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
[29] "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
[30] " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
[31] "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Flowery ancient legends. Beautiful. Thanks Web. You can surmise just about any meaning you want...
ReplyDeleteHere's some more:
God dwells in chosen temples -- Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples -- Acts 7:48
God is seen and heard -- Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
God is invisible and cannot be heard -- John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things -- Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things -- Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
God knows the hearts of men -- Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart -- Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
God is all powerful -- Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful -- Judg 1:19
God is unchangeable -- James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable -- Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/ Ex 33:1,3,17,14
God is just and impartial -- Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial -- Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
God is the author of evil -- Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil -- 1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
God gives freely to those who ask -- James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving them --
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
God is to be found by those who seek him -- Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him -- Prov 1:28
God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious --Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
-- James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
God's anger is fierce and endures for a long time -- Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute -- Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings, sacrifices, and holy days -- Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings, sacrifices, and holy days.
-- Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
God accepts human sacrifices -- 2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice -- Deut 12:30,31
God tempts men -- Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man -- James 1:13
God cannot lie -- Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits to deceive -- 2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
Because of man's wickedness God destroys him -- Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him -- Gen 8:21
Man is justified by faith alone -- Rom 3:20/ Gal 2:16/ Gal 3:11,12/ Rom 4:2
Man is not justified by faith alone -- James 2:21,24/ Rom 2:13
----------
If you wish, I could list more than 100 more contradictions...
Re William:
ReplyDeleteA person either believes or does not. If you do not, what is the point of arguing with someone who does? I have never understood that.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
(Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5) - William Shakespeare
fraydna,
ReplyDeleteThanx for that quote, it sums up my feelings exactly. Let me add just a few words to it:
"There are more things in heaven, earth, and beyond, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
(Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5) - William Shakespeare and William
I feel it is quite arrogant for man to have the audacity to think that a belief system he invented explains the creation and spiritual basis of the universe. Totality is far more vast than any person can comprehend in any puny philosophy or religion. We humans certainly fancy ourselves with grandeur. 'Created in the image of god, indeed! We have no concept of small our view really is.
God's Word and 2,000 years of Salvation History in the Bible came from God, not man. And while man can be 'arrogant' in anything, including religion, God is Sovereign. So it is trivia and puerile to judge God in terms of human frailties, like arrogance.
ReplyDeleteBetter to read and study the Bible in context and sequence from start to finish and ask to Holy Spirit to open your eyes and heart to Truth, than to pronounce and dismiss it as just another belief system.
William, Something you might find interesting reading sometimes is the book Hababbuk, one of the short, last books of the Old Testament.
ReplyDeleteAlso, after you've read it, there's a good commentary here that made me think of you:
http://bible.org/page.php?page_id=975